Curse

trobinson97 · Sep 27, 2007, 03:31 PM // 15:31

So yeah, you don't need the forum's software to show a diagram. Let's see it. Otherwise stop coming with such weak weak arguments.

Thing is, even if you could back your claim up, it still_doesn't_matter. Sure, a person would be more likely to take a level 20 over a 19, but so what? That's how it goes sometimes. That level 19 player will be alright. He might not get in that group, but he'll find a group. So what, no one should be level 20 now because someone wouldn't pick a level 19 over them? Please. At least some of the other people who are against the idea made solid arguments, even though they had to be found within wall of insults and condescension. Your's simply don't hold water.

Seriously, don't allow the titles effects to be universal because someone somewhere might not pick someone with a lower title over someone with a higher title. That's the best you can come up with?

freekedoutfish · Sep 27, 2007, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Taking someone with any other title or another form of 'prestige marker' is still at best a gamble of how honestly they earned it - taking someone with a Norn title over someone that doesn't, however, is equivalent to taking a character that is level 19 over level 20.

(I dare you to challenge that last sentence. Seriously, I dare you. If the forum had the capability, I could back it up with diagrams.)

So if a person has rank 8 Norn right now, that is a sign of being a good player? If they were able to use that +90 health in the entire game, you would use them because...

1) They have extra health?
2) Its a sign of ability?

..I hate to burst your bubble, but I have rank 8 Norn and Drawf and im working my way up on the others. It takes no talent in the slightest to get those ranks, other then bounty hunting and speaking to shrines. Im worried you seem to be attaching ability to increasing reputation ranks!

Its also all well and good if a person has +90 health, but unless their a decent player what good is it or they?

The same applies for the Norn extra energy. A person may have the +15 energy, but unless their a decent player or a profession which can take advantage of it, what good are they?

If your daft enough to take a person purely because based on an extra +100 health or +15 energy, then I question your PUGing ability! Your just as likely to pick a rubbish player with rank 10 Norn as you are picking a legendary guardian!

A persons title in PvE doesnt really speak for their ability at all. It just shows they can complete missions, explore, collect bounties or chests or ID things. Their build is more important then anything else. An extra +100 health might keep them alive for another few seconds, or keep them alive to ress you, but unless their a good player... thats all it will do!

Again the same for the extra energy!

You could find a lvl19 player in TOA who is better and more efficient then a player with rank 10 Norn! But if your the kind of player who concentrates on ranks in titles to judge a persons ability then im worried!

I wouldnt want to PUG with someone who is basing their team picking on how high a persons rank is! The only exception might be LG gaze, but even at rank 1 that title is still effective.

MithranArkanere · Sep 27, 2007, 09:02 PM // 21:02

It's the same in all RPGs.
You grind your way to get more level, or items or skills, or whatever, and the everywhere is a bit easier.

It's not really wrong.

draxynnic · Sep 28, 2007, 12:33 AM // 00:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by trobinson97

So yeah, you don't need the forum's software to show a diagram. Let's see it. Otherwise stop coming with such weak weak arguments.

Thing is, even if you could back your claim up, it still_doesn't_matter. Sure, a person would be more likely to take a level 20 over a 19, but so what? That's how it goes sometimes. That level 19 player will be alright. He might not get in that group, but he'll find a group. So what, no one should be level 20 now because someone wouldn't pick a level 19 over them? Please. At least some of the other people who are against the idea made solid arguments, even though they had to be found within wall of insults and condescension. Your's simply don't hold water.

Seriously, don't allow the titles effects to be universal because someone somewhere might not pick someone with a lower title over someone with a higher title. That's the best you can come up with?

Okay. There are three advantages to being level 20 over being level 19:
1) 20 extra hit points.
2) 15 extra attribute points.
3) 3 extra points of inherent armour penetration (for spells, wands and staves)

Now, R2 of Norn gives you 60 extra hit points. You can use those hit points to offset a major rune, leaving you with 25 extra hit points (more than the benefit going from 19 to 20). Chances are, the attribute you put the major rune is going to be fairly high to begin with, so the benefit it gives is likely to be the equivalent of having at least 13, possibly 16 or even 20, extra attribute points to spend. If you prefer to spend them elsewhere, you can reduce the expenditure in that particular attribute and spend them somewhere else.

For any build that doesn't use a superior to begin with, the above applies. Most builds that do use a superior also have at least one secondary attribute where ading a major would be equivalent to having another fifteen or so points to spend. In everything except the inherent armour penetration (and that's going to be overruled by weapon masteries for many classes) you can be equal to or better than a level 21 character would be expected to be. And if you choose NOT to use your extra hit points in this matter, that's implying that the other ways you can use it is more important to you than effectively being a level 21 character.

You don't quite get to level 22 off Norn, as to do the above twice or with a Superior and have the 40 extra hit points remaining to fulfill the first requirement needs 110-115 extra hit points. But you get close.

Now, why is that a problem? Because the original premise of Guild Wars was skill over time spent and a level playing field. Personally, I'd rather the titles didn't exist at all, or if they did they operated purely on quest or mission completion rather than killfests... but even in their current incarnation, they act more as a chance to use builds that otherwise may not function due to lack of energy, overuse of runes, or whatever, in specific areas, and without impacting on the rest of the game. Introduce them to the general game, though, and not only are you telling people they have to grind to get back on the level playing field, but since instead of using honest experience these pseudo-levels are instead bound to a kind of pseudo-experience that can only be gained in certain areas, you're telling people they have to grind specific areas to get back on the same playing field.

Dwayna help them if they don't have GW:EN. I thought extra material was supposed to be optional.

On the taking Norn or Asura over other representations of skill: The difference is that Norn or Asura represent a guaranteed benefit. For all someone knows, that guy in black FoW and displaying God Walking Amongst Mere Mortals is logging on for the first time after buying an account, or has very generous guildies and/or bots that have helped them get everything - unlikely, but possible. Or maybe they did get it honestly, but they might have an off day today. On the bottom line, relying on supposed indicators of skill is a gamble... but someone who has R10 Norn or Asura, while they might still suck as a player, has a distinct, measurable advantage over anyone who doesn't: They have 100 extra hit points or 15 extra energy. Skill is an intangible, and while it might prove that the person without Norn or Asura has the skill advantage to make up for it, extra durability or energy is a guaranteed benefit.

To be brutally honest, freekedoutfish, I've been wondering for several pages if having this advantage over other players who don't enjoy the grinding you do is actually the whole point of your request. You say that you wouldn't play with someone who screens via titles (overtly, at least) and you've said that you don't enjoy grind yourself (so why try to make it more important?

) but we only have your word for that - it's not like we have any way of verifying what you actually do and enjoy doing in game.

freekedoutfish · Sep 28, 2007, 12:16 PM // 12:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

...

You seem to keep missing the point, that there is no PvE title (when maxed out) which reflects a persons ability to play PvE.

Even legendary guardian (which I have) is easy to get with a decent guild or friends. The GWEN rank 10 titles dont show talent because it requires no more then bounty hunting (I know because im on rank 8 Norn and Drawf). The same applies for virtually all GWs pve titles.

So it doesnt matter if a person has +100 health and nulifies the effects of a superiour rune, or has +15 energy and can run off 1 or 2 more spells.

Any benefits from having extra health or energy are completely invalid if the player is completely useless! You could agrue that a person has to have some ability to atleast get certain titles, and that is true.

But its certainly not a sign of being better then Joe Bloggs standing next to him/her! A persons weapon, armor set, health level or energy level doesnt make a good player!

Again, if you chose a player (over another) simply because they had rank 10 Norn and 100+ health, then your inviting distaster. Your basing your entire choice based on him surviving a bit longer.

Even those players with (what is considered) a good build, can turn out to be complete Noobs and arrogant players who dont listen and kill your run!

Its just a bad idea to take one player over the other simply because...

+ They have 100+ health.
+ They have 15+ energy.
+ They can hurt more of Abaddons demons.
+ They have legendary guardian.
+ (or somet other apparent sign of an advantage)

Yes they must have some ability, but the guy next to them with no max titles could be an oober better player then them! I'm certain it does happen though because ive seen it! Even in areas which arent elite and are easy! I'VE SEEN it where people pick players depending on their titles!

But who cares?

Are you that bothered about joining a PUG which obviously contains really arrogant, anal and narrow-minded players?

Would you not rather join that PUG with people who just want to have fun and enjoy themselves, instead of spending 30 minutes debating builds and having arguements?

A PUG who lets you run with any build you like and display any title you want, aslong as your good at what you do and you help them out!

The sheer fact that your allowing these players to sway your opinion, on whether a suggestion should be implimented shows they are winning! These arrogant players who try to dictate builds and how to play the game are winning if your at a point where you dont sign an idea just because they will use it against you!

Why let players like that interfere with your gaming experience? Why let players like that prevent an idea from being implimented? Let them abuse it and let them stand in elite zones for an hour, forming parties and being completely anal.

Im quite happy to avoid those PUGs and play with guildies and friends I know and trust. Just dont play with these other players if they behave like that. And dont let them dictate what ideas we should and shouldnt use!

If someone says to you "your not joining us because your Norn rank isnt high enough", then you just laugh at them and tell them to stop being so anal. Chances are they will still be there in 30 minutes, debating builds and having agruments, kicking people and adding people. Never being happy with their party until it exactly how they want.

Is that the kind of party you want to join? Id be happy if they didnt accept me!

MithranArkanere · Sep 28, 2007, 02:08 PM // 14:08

You miss the points that you have to CHOOSE.

You can't have more than one titl selected at the same time.
*+100HP is nothing when the enemy can make 400HP hits.
*+15Energy is nothing when the enemy can interrupt almost anything you try.
*Lightbringer will work only on Abaddon demonic allies no matter what you do.
*Same for Vanguard with Charr. (And this one ALREADY works outside of GW:EN)

It's not "+" it's "OR".

draxynnic · Sep 28, 2007, 03:23 PM // 15:23

I think it's you who's missing the point, as you've agreed with the majority of my argument and missed the point.

As you said, there is no guarantee of the skill of the player. A higher title doesn't mean that a proposed eigtth member of a party is any more skilled than the opposition... but it also doesn't mean they're any less skilled. You have no way of knowing either way.

However, with your proposal there can be a guarantee of mechanical advantage. Extra health or extra energy is a guaranteed advantage. Someone who chooses based on this may well be shooting themselves in the foot by doing so because they've missed out on someone good enough to more than compensate for their disadvantage compared to the competition. But I certainly wouldn't blame them for discriminating based on title as a method of choosing who to take between otherwise equivalent options. I wouldn't be impressed at someone broadcasting "GLF more R8+ (active title)" either, but if someone takes a R8 over a R5 or untitled character given a choice, I can certainly understand that.

You don't know if one is more skilled than the other. But you DO know that the R8 as more hit points or energy than the R5. Hence, according to all the indicators you have, the R8 is more likely to do more for you than the R5.

There is no guarantee of skill, but hit points you can take to the bank, even if their effect may be relatively small, even to the point where maybe all it does is means they get overkilled by 50 points instead of 150.

Mithran, you've just reminded me of another side I've been missing, that of in-combat title-switching. I'll concede an earlier point that something like this is already in the game: you can switch weapon/shield/focus sets to change your energy and (possibly) health totals, which is a valid strategy. You can also, in theory, switch armour sets, although doing so in combat is going to be rather fiddly for a poor benefit and more effort than it's worth except in certain specific cases (although I know it did happen in PvP until ANet put a stop to it - which kinda indicates it's a form of gameplay they disapprove of). Someone with both titles maxed would, however, be able to make the switch between +15 energy and +100 health with the click of a mouse - you'd have to work hard to get a weaponswitch that makes that much difference.

Certainly, I've only rarely heard of armour-switching in Diablo 2 because it's equally fiddly, but pretty much every "how to be a paladin" guide I saw for D2 included aura flashing. Title switching may be a little more complicated than aura flashing as the time when to use each title is a bit more situational than just flashing a different aura every three seconds, but not by much.

To refer to your specific points:
+100hp does, however, make a big difference if you're being hit for 75ish points a hit, or even if you're being hit for 400 if it makes the difference between 750 and 850 hit points to begin with. (Yes, you'd need some serious health-boosting to have 750 hit points to start with... but if it means you last 50% longer...)

+15 energy could make a big difference if that's the energy you have remaining when the enemy runs out of interrupts, allowing you to get a spell of that saves the life of a party member (directly through heal/prot or indirectly through finishing off an enemy).

Yes, in some situations they aren't going to make a difference... but that doesn't change the fact that in others they will. Otherwise there'd be no point to them at all, and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

The other titles are not yet the subject of discussion

.

If you REALLY want some benefit for grinding, here's my counter-proposal. It's a little strawmanish at first glance, except in that I at least would genuinely prefer this to your proposal:

Leave Asura and Norn as they are.

Introduce a new title called "Adventurer". It grants a certain amount of health and energy per rank. If you want to maintain the "one or the other" functionality of Asura or Norn, you could split it between, say, "Magical Adept/Master/etc" for energy and "Tough as a (increasingly tougher creatures)" for health. Personally, though, due to title-switching, I don't really see the point.

Advancement in this title is achieved by... gaining experience.

Yes, it's pseudo-levelling. But compared to your proposal, it's much more equitable across the player base. Everyone has access to it - you don't get people with better characters than yours simply because they have GWEN and you don't (for the record, I do, but I'm keeping in mind that some people don't). It doesn't specify what you have to do to get it - some methods of play may be faster than others, but as long as you do play, you'll be constantly working towards it, so you never have to play in a way you don't enjoy in order to advance. If it's taken to increase both health AND energy, it makes the question of title-switching being made a core gameplay less relevant by providing both in one title. And, finally, it keeps the effects of Asura and Norn where they belong - as special effects that occur when in the territory of the respective races, performing deeds that are presumably for the benefit of those races, rather than halfway across the world away from their sources of power and performing deeds they couldn't care less about.

About the only one of my concerns that it doesn't improve on compared to your proposal is my quaint little belief that it would have been better for character advancement to stop at a nice, easily achieved point (apart from the collection of new skills) - but with GW2 being advertised as having a high or infinite level cap as if that was a good thing, I don't think I can avoid having to concede that I've lost that one... with this franchise, at least.

At least I'll know the signs if someone else decides to try making a grindless game and starts going down the same road.

(Oh, and it also doesn't address the issue of old areas becoming easier with more powerful toons - but as has been stated, this already occurs with the ability to bring in skills and classes from newer chapters that the older mobs just aren't equipped to handle. Besides, that was someone else's point, and not one that really bothers me all that much.)

EinherjarMx · Sep 28, 2007, 04:01 PM // 16:01

/NOTSIGNED

I don't do pugs, already had my share of it, so no elitism for me even if there's a slightly chance of having to pug

and yes, +100hp or +15nrg are an advantage, 100hp on a warr are 3 or more seconds of survivability, +15nrg on a monk are an aegis + a SOA cast, and you're saying that it doesn't matter?

I'd love to see a 70nrg monk running around with 4 pips of regen... I thought only eles had access to energy storage

/sarcasm

those titles give an advantage to grinders, but is up to them to use them wisely or waste them

"Let us use celestial skills outside Raisu Palace/Imperial Sanctum"

freekedoutfish · Sep 28, 2007, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

I think it's you who's missing the point, as you've agreed with the majority of my argument and missed the point.

As you said, there is no guarantee of the skill of the player. A higher title doesn't mean that a proposed eigtth member of a party is any more skilled than the opposition... but it also doesn't mean they're any less skilled. You have no way of knowing either way.

However, with your proposal there can be a guarantee of mechanical advantage. Extra health or extra energy is a guaranteed advantage. ....

Extra health and energy is not a guaranteed advantage at all. For the reasons you dont seem to want to accept. Its like saying if an MM has flesh golem its going to make them automatically better. Ofcourse it wont!

Talking on a mechanical level...an extra 100 health is only a few more moments of life and an extra 15 health is 1 or 2 more spells!

100 health can be removed by any high end creature in about 2 seconds, and creatures can drain that extra 15 energy from you in the same amount of time.

It is not a staggering advantage. Its certainly nothing to write home about!

Having an exta 100 health or 15 energy is not going to compensate for a player being rubbish. You really are just making that up!!!!

What astounds me, is that you complain about how people judge a player by their titles, and yet your defending this idea of using a rank8 over a rank5, despite it not adding any huge advantage.

Your incouraging a mentality which shouldnt exist ingame!

We shouldnt be punishing every player ingame, by denying this choice to use Norn and Asuran status effects in the entire game, just because a select few players like yourself judge a person on their titles.

Thats completely unfair and yet you agree with it!

Its players that kind of attitude who are preventing alot of fun things being expanded through the game!

For the record, I have superiour runes on me. At times I have 2, which removes about 150 health (or somet). I never had any issues dealing and taking damaage while using that build. But if I joined your pug and mentioned I had two superiour runes, would you kick me?

I get the impression you would!

This is no different to standing in an elite zones and posting..

"LFG with players who only have a maximum of 1 superiour rune."

...despite the fact my build is great, I have more then enough experience and im perfectly capable! You would just judge me in a second and kick me and assume an ele with only one sup rune was better.

Stuff which is all completely unfounded!

If you have a decent enough monk (whether be AI or not) in your team, you shouldnt have to worry about having extra health. There is also no areas in GWs at all, where having 100+ health or 15+ energy is critical to anything.

All aspects of the game can be completed in NM and HM without those aspects. So why would you stand in an outpost and desperate seek out people with rank 10s?

That is just purely anal and arrogant. Its that attitude of "I have to have the best team ever, even though I dont need an amazing team to do it". Its just childish.

Yet, even though their not critical, we should have the choice to use them if we want to! But they shouldnt be twisted into some necessity for joining PUGs.

But if players like yourself insist on having this mentality of judging players on non-critical athetics and machanics, then it will persist!

How about instead of saying /not signed to this idea, we try to educate people ingame to stop being so anal about forming PUGs and to lighten up and let people play how they want.

That seems a more productive things to do, then to stop all ideas that could be warped by them.

EinherjarMx · Sep 28, 2007, 04:46 PM // 16:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

We shouldnt be punishing every player ingame, by denying this choice to use Norn and Asuran status effects in the entire game, just because a select few players like yourself judge a person on their titles.

Then it would be better to have no titles at all,

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

For the record, I have superiour runes on me. At times I have 2, which removes about 150 health (or somet). I never had any issues dealing and taking damaage while using that build. But if I joined your pug and mentioned I had two superiour runes, would you kick me?

of course, and not because of the title, I'd kick you because, in an environment where everyone is being heavily attacked, despite the passive defenses, you would be an annoyance to the monk who has to be more alert on you than on any other party member. Even if you're @ 16fire + glyph of ele power + a +1 staff and chocolate bunnies, balthazar's blessings, dwayna's, melandru's, dhuum's, menzie's, labsenpai's and everything that gives you a +1 attribs, you are useless dead

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

If you have a decent enough monk (whether be AI or not) in your team, you shouldnt have to worry about having extra health. There is also no areas in GWs at all, where having 100+ health or 15+ energy is critical to anything.

Reduced damage from lightgbringer title is a good example of how even though it's not critical, it's very helpful, just take that obby tank with a maxed title and you'll see how "pointless" are the bonuses

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

How about instead of saying /not signed to this idea, we try to educate people ingame to stop being so anal about forming PUGs and to lighten up and let people play how they want.

It would take less effort to eradicate world hunger

IIRC you were the guy that used a headgear+sup energy storage and a +15/-1 offhand.
Even amongst pve community members it would be taken as a waste of health, and now that you say that you use 2 superiors, I rest my case.
I wonder why you haven't started a thread about bows and fire rate...

Good luck with your petition, as for me, it is futile to keep answering on this topic, you want mechanics to be twisted to your benefits instead of adjusting to them

freekedoutfish · Sep 28, 2007, 04:53 PM // 16:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by EinherjarMx

Good luck with your petition, as for me, it is futile to keep answering on this topic, you want mechanics to be twisted to your benefits instead of adjusting to them

What am I trying to adjust too?

I dont need these status effects, I just thought they would be alot more usefull and justifiable if they were used game wide.

At the moment the Norn and Asuran status effects dont add much to GWEN.

MithranArkanere · Sep 28, 2007, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

I think it's you who's missing the point, as you've agreed with the majority of my argument and missed the point.

As you said, there is no guarantee of the skill of the player. A higher title doesn't mean that a proposed eigtth member of a party is any more skilled than the opposition... but it also doesn't mean they're any less skilled. You have no way of knowing either way.

However, with your proposal there can be a guarantee of mechanical advantage. Extra health or extra energy is a guaranteed advantage. Someone who chooses based on this may well be shooting themselves in the foot by doing so because they've missed out on someone good enough to more than compensate for their disadvantage compared to the competition. But I certainly wouldn't blame them for discriminating based on title as a method of choosing who to take between otherwise equivalent options. I wouldn't be impressed at someone broadcasting "GLF more R8+ (active title)" either, but if someone takes a R8 over a R5 or untitled character given a choice, I can certainly understand that.

You don't know if one is more skilled than the other. But you DO know that the R8 as more hit points or energy than the R5. Hence, according to all the indicators you have, the R8 is more likely to do more for you than the R5.

There is no guarantee of skill, but hit points you can take to the bank, even if their effect may be relatively small, even to the point where maybe all it does is means they get overkilled by 50 points instead of 150.

Mithran, you've just reminded me of another side I've been missing, that of in-combat title-switching. I'll concede an earlier point that something like this is already in the game: you can switch weapon/shield/focus sets to change your energy and (possibly) health totals, which is a valid strategy. You can also, in theory, switch armour sets, although doing so in combat is going to be rather fiddly for a poor benefit and more effort than it's worth except in certain specific cases (although I know it did happen in PvP until ANet put a stop to it - which kinda indicates it's a form of gameplay they disapprove of). Someone with both titles maxed would, however, be able to make the switch between +15 energy and +100 health with the click of a mouse - you'd have to work hard to get a weaponswitch that makes that much difference.

Certainly, I've only rarely heard of armour-switching in Diablo 2 because it's equally fiddly, but pretty much every "how to be a paladin" guide I saw for D2 included aura flashing. Title switching may be a little more complicated than aura flashing as the time when to use each title is a bit more situational than just flashing a different aura every three seconds, but not by much.

To refer to your specific points:
+100hp does, however, make a big difference if you're being hit for 75ish points a hit, or even if you're being hit for 400 if it makes the difference between 750 and 850 hit points to begin with. (Yes, you'd need some serious health-boosting to have 750 hit points to start with... but if it means you last 50% longer...)

+15 energy could make a big difference if that's the energy you have remaining when the enemy runs out of interrupts, allowing you to get a spell of that saves the life of a party member (directly through heal/prot or indirectly through finishing off an enemy).

Yes, in some situations they aren't going to make a difference... but that doesn't change the fact that in others they will. Otherwise there'd be no point to them at all, and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

The other titles are not yet the subject of discussion

.

If you REALLY want some benefit for grinding, here's my counter-proposal. It's a little strawmanish at first glance, except in that I at least would genuinely prefer this to your proposal:

Leave Asura and Norn as they are.

Introduce a new title called "Adventurer". It grants a certain amount of health and energy per rank. If you want to maintain the "one or the other" functionality of Asura or Norn, you could split it between, say, "Magical Adept/Master/etc" for energy and "Tough as a (increasingly tougher creatures)" for health. Personally, though, due to title-switching, I don't really see the point.

Advancement in this title is achieved by... gaining experience.

Yes, it's pseudo-levelling. But compared to your proposal, it's much more equitable across the player base. Everyone has access to it - you don't get people with better characters than yours simply because they have GWEN and you don't (for the record, I do, but I'm keeping in mind that some people don't). It doesn't specify what you have to do to get it - some methods of play may be faster than others, but as long as you do play, you'll be constantly working towards it, so you never have to play in a way you don't enjoy in order to advance. If it's taken to increase both health AND energy, it makes the question of title-switching being made a core gameplay less relevant by providing both in one title. And, finally, it keeps the effects of Asura and Norn where they belong - as special effects that occur when in the territory of the respective races, performing deeds that are presumably for the benefit of those races, rather than halfway across the world away from their sources of power and performing deeds they couldn't care less about.

About the only one of my concerns that it doesn't improve on compared to your proposal is my quaint little belief that it would have been better for character advancement to stop at a nice, easily achieved point (apart from the collection of new skills) - but with GW2 being advertised as having a high or infinite level cap as if that was a good thing, I don't think I can avoid having to concede that I've lost that one... with this franchise, at least.

At least I'll know the signs if someone else decides to try making a grindless game and starts going down the same road.

(Oh, and it also doesn't address the issue of old areas becoming easier with more powerful toons - but as has been stated, this already occurs with the ability to bring in skills and classes from newer chapters that the older mobs just aren't equipped to handle. Besides, that was someone else's point, and not one that really bothers me all that much.)

So you say that the energy provided with one item, that can easily surpass those +15 (+20) should also be removed?
Getting extra energy or health from items is WAY easier and WAY faster that getting them by grinding.

And I remember you that the rest of the grinf must be achieved in hard mode or by completing over and over again the books.

Yet again, there is no problem on allowing those few puny small bonuses everywhere in PvE.

=HT=Ingram · Sep 28, 2007, 07:51 PM // 19:51

You have no idea how much these will be helpful in Hard Mode for Gwen once released.

and as to other places well heck you get the benefit of their skills don't you? you bet you do.... But the bonuses for being in their territory is not relevant as you are not in their territory of the game... so it makes perfect sense. If it was not for this then heck Why not allow lightbringer bonuses everywhere? See what I mean? that's just as silly a statement as what your asking for...

draxynnic · Sep 28, 2007, 10:14 PM // 22:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Extra health and energy is not a guaranteed advantage at all. For the reasons you dont seem to want to accept. Its like saying if an MM has flesh golem its going to make them automatically better. Ofcourse it wont!

Talking on a mechanical level...an extra 100 health is only a few more moments of life and an extra 15 health is 1 or 2 more spells!

100 health can be removed by any high end creature in about 2 seconds, and creatures can drain that extra 15 energy from you in the same amount of time.

It is not a staggering advantage. Its certainly nothing to write home about!

Having an exta 100 health or 15 energy is not going to compensate for a player being rubbish. You really are just making that up!!!!

What astounds me, is that you complain about how people judge a player by their titles, and yet your defending this idea of using a rank8 over a rank5, despite it not adding any huge advantage.

Your incouraging a mentality which shouldnt exist ingame!

We shouldnt be punishing every player ingame, by denying this choice to use Norn and Asuran status effects in the entire game, just because a select few players like yourself judge a person on their titles.

Thats completely unfair and yet you agree with it!

Its players that kind of attitude who are preventing alot of fun things being expanded through the game!

For the record, I have superiour runes on me. At times I have 2, which removes about 150 health (or somet). I never had any issues dealing and taking damaage while using that build. But if I joined your pug and mentioned I had two superiour runes, would you kick me?

I get the impression you would!

This is no different to standing in an elite zones and posting..

"LFG with players who only have a maximum of 1 superiour rune."

...despite the fact my build is great, I have more then enough experience and im perfectly capable! You would just judge me in a second and kick me and assume an ele with only one sup rune was better.

Stuff which is all completely unfounded!

If you have a decent enough monk (whether be AI or not) in your team, you shouldnt have to worry about having extra health. There is also no areas in GWs at all, where having 100+ health or 15+ energy is critical to anything.

All aspects of the game can be completed in NM and HM without those aspects. So why would you stand in an outpost and desperate seek out people with rank 10s?

That is just purely anal and arrogant. Its that attitude of "I have to have the best team ever, even though I dont need an amazing team to do it". Its just childish.

Yet, even though their not critical, we should have the choice to use them if we want to! But they shouldnt be twisted into some necessity for joining PUGs.

But if players like yourself insist on having this mentality of judging players on non-critical athetics and machanics, then it will persist!

How about instead of saying /not signed to this idea, we try to educate people ingame to stop being so anal about forming PUGs and to lighten up and let people play how they want.

That seems a more productive things to do, then to stop all ideas that could be warped by them.

We've already gone over this, and some of the people on your side, even if you're being stubborn, have conceded the point. Extra health or energy is an advantage. It may, as Mithran pointed out, be an advantage that proves to be meaningless as it's simply overwhelemed by what the enemy has... but on teh other hand, it may not, and it's an advantage you're guaranteed to have by taking a higher total over the lower. As I've said... it may be offset by the person without the title being a better player... but on the other hand as I said before it could just as easily be the player without the title that is rubbish and the player with the title who is a good player as well as having the title benefits. There's just no way of knowing.

Your example of the multiple superiors is different because, presumably, you feel you get an advantage from the second superior that offsets the -75 hit points. You're not getting something for free (yes, yes, the titles do require work to get (oh, look, prepare to have fun over having fun again!

), but once you've got them the only opportunity cost to having one active is that you can't display another), but obviously you think the extra attribute points are worth 75 hit points. I'd be willing to accept that... but it doesn't mean that those 75 hit points weren't worth having in the first place, just that you feel that you've found a better use for them. (Now, if you were bringing a -55 into an area with significant enchantment removal...)

Mithran, as I stated in my post: Weapon-swapping - to do things like, say, get a burst of extra energy at the cost of regen via 15/-1 equipment - IS supposed to be part of the game. I don't think playing the game with your title window open so you can flip titles to get a quick burst of health or energy is. And then, there's a tradeoff to equipment-swapping - the tradeoff ISN'T that you've had to spend time preparing to have fun rather than having fun, it's a tradeoff that matters while you're on the battlefield.

At this point, I think I've basically said all I need to say. I feel I've pointed out how it disadvantages people who don't enjoy a certain style of play. I've presented an alternative which I believe would be better and fairer for the majority of the player base, in that it rewards any style of play (apart from PvP and Drunkard/Sweet Tooth title grinding) instead of just one. And in the last couple of posts, I haven't seen anything but variations of arguments that I feel I've sufficiently rebutted.

So, instead of continuing to waste time making cyclical arguments, I'm going to bow out and allow the arguments I've made to stand on their own until and unless I see something that's actually new coming from your side.

freekedoutfish · Sep 29, 2007, 10:29 AM // 10:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

....There's just no way of knowing....

Well I disagree with you, because your trying to promote this judgemental attitude ingame of "you dont meet my criteria, so you cant join me". Which is childish.

Do you not allow people to join your PUGs in destroyer locations unless they have rank 8 Drawf?

=HT=Ingram · Sep 29, 2007, 12:06 PM // 12:06

I refer you to your requested update thread. enjoy. Grenth help us all...

GW final update proposal

freekedoutfish · Sep 29, 2007, 12:46 PM // 12:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by =HT=Ingram

I refer you to your requested update thread. enjoy. Grenth help us all...

GW final update proposal

I dont even see why that thread exists! Its just another attempt to perpetuate this idea the game is going to die once GW2 is out. Its pathetic.

Ignore that link, because it has nothing to do with this post!

draxynnic · Sep 29, 2007, 01:05 PM // 13:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Well I disagree with you, because your trying to promote this judgemental attitude ingame of "you dont meet my criteria, so you cant join me". Which is childish.

Do you not allow people to join your PUGs in destroyer locations unless they have rank 8 Drawf?

I may be going back on my word here, but...

Have you even been reading my posts, or do you just have a bot repeating the same dry old accusations whenever someone on the other side posts?

I think I've stated about fifteen billion times that I don't condone setting criteria for joining a group.

I just wouldn't blame a party leader for taking someone with, to take your example, r8 dwarf (that's dWaRf. W before R - let's nip that one in the bud before it becomes as common as "rouge"... assuming it hasn't already, that is) and the same profession over me - because the party that's recruiting knows they get an advantage from the higher title. Now, if they rejected me out of hand because they were waiting for a r8 dwarf and weren't going to go with anyone who wasn't a r8 dwarf, that'd be closer to what you're saying. But if there just happened to be one present, just as ready to go as I was, and if they wouldn't have taken me if that r8 character wasn't directly competing for the slot - that's a whole different matter. Because there is no logical reason to take a character with r3 dwarf over one with r8 dwarf unless you have good reason to believe the former is better in other ways that will make up for the difference.

Heck, if I was the elitist you just seemed to claim I was, I'd be supporting you, looking forward with great enthusiasm to the day where I and my exclusive r8+ club can travel the world pwning everything and showing off how leet we are, instead of our hypothetical leetness only being relevant to specific areas as they are now.

And there we go. In our last two posts, neither of us have said anything that we hadn't said in the two posts before that. Or the two posts before that. Or maybe even the two posts before that. Another round of the cyclical argument... except that I'm actually rebutting your argument., while you're just propping up a scarecrow that looks vaguely like my argument - if one ignores the prominant stapled-on demonic horns, stands on one leg, looks at its silhouette against the setting sun and squints - and attacking that.

This time, unless someone comes up with a counterargument instead of continuing to to beat the thoroughly dead, decomposed, buried, and repeatedly exhumed "you're condoning elitism" horse, I really am done here.

freekedoutfish · Sep 29, 2007, 01:32 PM // 13:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

...
I think I've stated about fifteen billion times that I don't condone setting criteria for joining a group.
...

You dont condone it, yet you admit you would do it! I respect you for saying its bad, but to then admit you would pick a rank5 over a rank8 is double standards in my view.

That all im saying!

You cant reject an idea, because a small % of the community will turn around and use it against people. The fact is that small % of players can use anything and turn it into a requirement and kick you if you dont have it.

You might be wanting to join a PUG and your asked if you have a certain elite that is only available in Nightfall. But you dont own nightfall and your not accepted.

While someone who does is!

These players who have that attitude of "you have to have what I want or you cant join", can twist any aspect of the game in that way.

Whether it be a title, a normal or elite skill or something else equally as moronic. But does that mean we should scrap any ideas that might be at risk of being twisted in that way?

IMO no, because if we do that, its like accepting that behaviour is ok. It would be better to try and remove that kind of attitude from the game, then to not impliment ideas because of it.

But I also accept such attitudes will never go away, and we will always have players who twist things and judge you on them.

But attitudes like that prevent any kind of diversity ingame, and any ability to play it in varied ways. But still doesnt mean we shouldnt introduce new ideas.

Bottom line is I dont think we shouldnt add this, just because a small % of the community will judge people on it. There are still 1000s of other players to join and PUG with. If everyone told these arrogant players to [enter bad language], then they might buck their ideas up.

But instead we conform and do what they want, and let them win.

draxynnic · Sep 29, 2007, 01:39 PM // 13:39

Okay, slightly different response here, as a last-ditch effort to clarify a point that obviously isn't getting through:

I'm not talking about the small % who say "you must have X or we don't want you".

I'm talking about the I expect very large % who would say "Either of you would do, but we can tell that (s)he's a little bit better than by the only means we have of quantitatively judging such things you because they have a title better than yours, so we'll take them."

Of course, there will be some who don't bother to check. But the people taking the second option aren't being unreasonable - just being logical about what their best interests are in the unfortunate situation* where someone is going to be disappointed whatever they do. Only the first group are actually being unreasonable.

Maybe I hadn't made that clear enough before. I hope I have now.

*Certainly one I absolutely hate having to deal with. I'm also fairly active in RPGA games, where a similar situation occurs whenever you have seven people wanting to play a game (tables can have four to six players, but not three or seven) and no likelihood of an eightth player making themselves available. In those situations, at least one person is going to be disappointed, so you might as well make sure the remaining six have the best party that can be possibly formed out of the characters of the seven players in question. It's the same principle in action.